After about a month of reviewing the initial proposal put forward by the National Hockey League, Donald Fehr and the NHLPA have finally tabled their highly anticipated “alternate view”.
It’s pretty clear that they weren’t crazy about the concepts put forward by the owners and have now come forward with their own set of demands. With the current collective bargaining agreement set expire on September 15th, it’s clear both sides have some work to do.
Donald Fehr, along with a group of more than 23 NHL players, including Sens forward Jason Spezza, made their counter-proposal at a meeting today in Toronto.
Details of the proposal were not immediately available but despite speculation leading up to the announcement, there is apparently no mention of removing the salary cap.
In his comments to the media last week, NHL commissioner Gary “The 8 million dollar man” Bettman indicated that if there isn’t a new CBA in place by the September 15th deadline, the players will be locked out. It was an aggressive statement by the Commish and one that shows where these negotiations are headed.
Bettman spoke to the media following today’s proposal from the NHLPA and indicated he’ll need some time to review and hopes to have a response when they meet again tomorrow morning.
Over the next month, we are going to hear a lot of posturing by both sides in what is sure to be an extremely public negotiation. Reality is that while the owners and the NHLPA will be looking out for their own best interests, the fans are the ones that pay the price.
Here’s hoping cooler heads can prevail and a common ground can be found by the time training camp rolls around in September.
As fans, it’s extremely important that we make sure our voices are heard throughout this process. What do you expect from the NHLPA proposal? Where do you see the negotiations going from here?
There, I've been heard
Make a movie out it!
I thought the Owners one was pretty ridiculous in that they knew the players would never accept it.
I'm really surprised that the NHLPA did not propose the elimination of the salary cap.. as was rumoured to be in it yesterday. I guess that is a starting point.
IF they can agree on what is HRR and get the revenue split to each side's liking.. then the rest should be pretty easily negotiated.. ie contract length, ELC length, no arbitration, etc...
For me my hockey fix will be the 67's.. until such time the NHL decides it wants to play hockey.
I still go to a few 67's games throughout the season... especially those ones that include the Sens propects...
@HockeyyInsiderr
Update: The #NHLDucks are very high on Michalek since his time with the #SJSharks. He is the center piece of negotiations w #Sens for B.Ryan.
if this is true, pull the trigger
Sens don't have a 2013 -- 2nd round pick. IF they give up a 1st round pick... then they don't select until the 3rd round in what has been reported to be a very good draft...
The Sens would still be in the situation of wanting another top 6 forward. Bryan Murray also liked MM when he was with the Ducks.. that's why he jumped to the Heatley deal when SJ included Michalek.
well i was thinking of say, we get bobby ryan, we give up MM9, 1st round, and someone...
maybe on draft day we could get a late 1st from someone or early second for bishop
Because they are both in top line of their teams ,it should be only 1 for 1 . I would not give up Michalek for Ryan, simply because it is a lateral move, and does not provide any gain . Michalek has 60 points to Ryan's 57 !!
Actually, if Ducks want Michalek, they should give another player on their current roster.
I agree.
Michalek is a proven hockey player. Potential of Ryan aside... Ottawa needs both Ryan and Michalek to have a strong top 6. I am not opposed to trading Michalek... but this would be more of a lateral move than forward.
Michalek - Spezza - Ryan
Silfverberg - Turris - Alfredsson
If we have to get rid of a top 6 for another one, then we're back at square one, in need of a top 6 forward yet again.
Silfverberg - Spezza - Ryan
? - Turris - Alfredsson
It's pretty much anybody's spot now...
Ryan > Michalek > Heatley > Hossa
Losing Ryan for nothing in 3 years would've been a loss dating back from when Hossa was drafted by Ottawa. So we'll see if he's content after 2 years and if so, sign an extension when one year is left and if not content, then shipped off immediately so we still have whatever is left.
If Michalek +2012 1st does it
Get it done already
Michalek likes Ottawa, wants to play here, is VERY affordable and locked up for a few more years. And when his contract is up, he will most likely sign for the same type of term as he has now. He may not be the most illusive winger in the league, but Bobby Ryan isn't THAT much of an improvement.
in my opinion, if we have to include Bishop, and picks to get Ryan, then screw that, not much of an upgrade at all.
In their NHL careers so far Michalek has scored 30 goals in a season once, Ryan has done it 4 times.
The money is roughly the same (cap hit is 800,000 a year difference) Michalek has 2 years left on hid deal, Ryan 3.
I would love to swing a deal with Anaheim that left us with both Ryan and Michalek, but if we had to give up Michalek and a prospect (or two depending on the names) I would do it.
Let's not get carried away with over evaluating Michalek, Ryan is a better player than he is, but it doesn't fix the top 6 gap.
Saw that in a Tweet from the CBC as well but hadn't read it anywhere else.
You think Hossa is the worst player listed??
Yikes
Totally surprised at your suggestion my friend, as this move is redundant !
Do not believe that Bryan Murray will trade Michalek + 2012 1st Rounder for Bobby Ryan . It makes no sense to fill a hole and create another similar hole ??
Now I have. Calling it a three year, "transitional" deal.
The reason I'm really behind this move is that the NHL needs revenue sharing. The big money teams are rolling in the dough, and the current salary model has been forcing the cap up and up. Small market teams just can't keep up. Heck, even Ottawa seems to be running on a self-imposed budget. It's doubly important since other mid-market teams have to support the Phoenix's and potentially the Devils. It's just too much cash out the door for some owners. There needs to be a better balance.
I can see the player's interest in this. They want to see the long-term viability of all 30 teams. If we go to a 28 team league or less, there's that many fewer jobs to go around. Also, the competition at free agency will be higher as more teams have more money due to revenue sharing.
It's interesting to see the players trying to police the league through a luxury tax. The owners obviously can't seem to do that themselves!
It's a slightly different hole though and the pieces that are there would be better.
I agree there is no point in significantly weakening one area to plug another, which is why I wouldn't want Turris involved in a deal but I think Ryan over Michalek is a significant upgrade and worth investigating.
Pretty sure that's not what he was saying... he was indicating the trade order... we started with Hossa... who we traded for Heatley... who we traded for Michalek... who we "might" trade for Ryan...
Nailed it bro. Thanks for understanding.
In regards to Ryan...he is your top winger, no doubt.. michalek to me is maybe your #2...ideally your third winger.
I'm not sure how much getting rid of michalek and adding Ryan improved our positioning in the draft tho... I would hate to see our pick be top 10..if we do better than that though...is love the deal. Ryan has only missed 1 game in 3 years...which appeals greatly to me as well
UPDATE(2:30 PM ET): Donald Fehr spoke with the media on Tuesday afternoon and hinted at some pieces of the proposal. A handful of points mentioned:
(a) Revenue-sharing that could trend as high as $250M annually;
(b) The continued implementation of a hard salary cap;
(c) No changes in free agency or player salary lengths; and
(d) A three-year reduced HRR assumed by the players.
Fehr believes the proposal will lead to a new Collective Bargaining Agreement, stabilizing an industry where the players assume a lower percentage of revenue sharing over the next few seasons.
=============
This has me a little more optimistic than I was earlier today. But the players salary lengths have to be fixed to stop those teams circumventing the cap. Make the low a percentage of the high.. and I think they have something. The contract would have the cap closer to the actual salary.
You are right, except that you are wrong.
He is a step up, nobody is arguing that. However, Ryan is not a huge step up; especially if we have another hole to fill if Michalek is traded. I don't know how well Ryan plays the defensive side of the game either... can he kill penalties like Michalek? He is always at the top of the league in short handed goals.
I want Ryan, but not at the expense of Michalek. I don;t ever propose trades, but:
Zibby, Regin, Da Costa and a third should be enough. Or if they want a defenseman, they could throw in Weircoch instead...
I love your offer, I can't see Anaheim loving it though
Now that offer is a much better proposal, and we would then not create another hole by sending Michalek to Ducks !!
Well I guess in this situation Murrays would be the only ones hahaha...but you know what I mean
Milan Michalek has scored over 30 goals once, in 7 seasons
bobby is a upgrade from milan, why argue that bobby isnt good, he is a better player than Milan
Nobody is arguing that Ryan isn't more of an impact player...
What people are arguing is that Milo is not the right player to include in this deal.
Nah, I get that man. You have to overpay. I wouldn't be upset if Milo was traded because Ryan is a better goal scorer. However, I would try not to trade Milo if poossible.
Its not even really a one player bidding war you have to compete with offers for Perry/Getz as well...I suspect they try to keep at least two of the three
i think its going to take someone like milan to get this deal done unless, they just want prospects than we have lots..i would move milan before i moved zibby or stone, but thats just me, i would move milan for bobby cuz its a upgrade at that spot, zibby could play 2nd with turris and alfie, if zibby makes the team, throw in stone on 3rd and i think we have a great team
Your point about MIchalek being good defensively makes sense and I agree that he is good on the penalty kill but don't get too carried away by his short handed prowess.
I'm sure we would be able to replace the one short handed goal Michalek scored last year from somebody else.
From a budget stand point its dollar for dollar ..Which is must from the Sens side..
From a player stand point Ryan is better player plain and simple
Ryan Spezza Stone
Silfverberg Turris Alfie
In the simplest terms, a luxury tax allows a team to go over the cap, but they get "taxed" on the overage.
So if a team spents $10mil over the cap, they have to pay some amount of "tax" on that $10mil. Usually its a tiered system, but for simplicity say that its 1-1... so in addition to paying more money out in salary, the team also pays the league $10mil in taxes, which, I believe, then get added to the revenue sharing pot.
This allows teams like the NYR, TML (and Yankees) to spend way over the cap to "buy" better teams because they have more money than sense... and the small markets get paid to let them do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_tax_(sports)
This also explains the difference between soft and hard salary caps... google + wiki == making people smarter
May as well ask "What is Google?" or "What is Wiki?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_tax_%28sports%29
hmmm i wondered how the world goes round...
we discuss all the bullshit proposed trades that people come up with in here so i don't see why a proposed trade from outside should be exempted.
reading it and discussing it are different things than believing it.
fine, i'll start one
chris neil, craig anderson, robin lehner and jacob silfverberg for evgeni malkin
and yes they want 2 goalies, one for backup and one as a prospect.
Its the off season relax dont have a stroke
The 4th year option is clever, but I really think they are willing to take less now in order to make more later/longterm, when the league is making even more money.
Its not true, the Ducks want Cowen.
and I hope at that point Murray told em to go fly a kite and hung up the phone.
Chirp, do you feel optimistic.. that something can be worked out with this so the NHL can start on time?
I think there will still be an issue with the contract length -- something has to be done to control the Rangers, Flyers, et al.. that just keep driving up the prices...
where did you read that? Haven't seen that anywhere...
Why does the Canada-Russia challenge only consist of 4 games? Why not best of 5?
On Topic,
Rebuilding Team needs character, i wouldn't having 9MM around to show the young guns some work ethic. If Greening could develop into the Player 9MM is, that would be key. Not sure if we have enough grit on our team to get by without 9MM. BR has skill, but put him on the wing with Spezza, even if we made it far in the playoffs - it would be another ducks / sens fiasco.
he is a 30 goal scorer, hardly an impossible thing to find. To me it is crazy to give up (realistically) a 25 Goal scorer in MM9 ++ to get one 30 goal scorer??
and Cowen? Forget about it. Anaheim would have to add a few pieces with Ryan for a d-man like Cowen if you ask me.
Thanks and to all who sent links lol
milan is always hurt only scored over 30 once in 7 seasons, which he has only been healthy made 2 of those seasons,
when u lose those 5 games by one goal and maybe miss the playoffs you will understand why u trade for guys that score over 30 year after year.
Don't have the info...
So I get that the rich teams make all the big money.. but what right do they have to spend more to have a better team than the rest of the teams that are mid to small markets.
That makes an unbalanced league again...
That's the problem though, the rich teams WANT an unbalanced league, it benefits them, their success rate and their bottom lines. The owners are the greediest players in this whole equation, it's just funny it doesn't come out that way more often.
Michalek-Greening-DaCosta-Wiorcioch+1st rounder
for Ryan-Fowler+2nd rounder.
Then you try to REALLY get rid of Gonchar and we're all set.
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2012/8/14/3242744/nhl-chl-transfer-agreement-ahl
sure hope so, would be really beneficial to have talent develop with men rather than just dominate 16 year old kids.
Read that too but @reporterchris seems to be changing that a little bit on Twitter.
@reporterchris- Need to clarify: Misunderstood what I was told. PA proposal includes "small exceptions" to hard cap, but not in the form of luxury tax.
we are the 4th highest scoring team in the league. To improve in the standings, we need to prevent that one extra goal, not score it. We have skill coming up internally that will make us a more dangerous team offensively next year as it is.
Bobby Ryan doesn't make Ottawa any better if you lose another top 6 guy to get him, plus a guy who should get 15 himself this year (silf or Zib). And your 1st in a year where the sens are one injury to spezza away from being a team that picks in the top 10? not worth it, imo.
I know Michalek has been injured in the past but he has never missed more than 16 games. He is still going to score 25 to Ryan's 35 and you wont lose anything else in the process. Plenty of other guys are going to score goals this year that havent factored into our offense yet.
one of Latendresse or Silf will replace Foligno's 15. Turris should double his personal goal totals. Scoring is not a need, why get Ryan?
I do agree that scoring wise Ryan is an upgrade to Michalek in that he is a pure sniper. But Michalek still scores goals and plays a better 200 foot game.
Priceless... you sir just did my day with that trade offer.
I had a good laugh about it.
I think Stone is a modern day Tim Kerr or John LeClair with better hands to make plays. Only question is he ready now or not??
Still too many bodies hanging around though IMO - SENS will still have to swing some bodies in a trade to make some room. Thats why I'm convinced that if the team makes a move it will be 4-5 guys for a couple in return.
the ducks are laughing at this
All I have to say is this:
Go fuckin' Sens!!!
~Peluso
I don't know, I'm not sure I recall the league being unbalanced before the lockout. it's not like before the cap era the Cup was won by big market teams only. In fact, the only team considered "big market" to win the cup in the 6 years leading up to the lockout was Detroit.
Detroit is really the only "big market" team you can say has had consistent championship caliber teams in the 15 years leading up to the lockout. I think hockey is enough of a team game where you can't simply buy championships.
All this to say, I could care less how they get it done, as long as they get it done.
small minded
http://thehockeywriters.com/2013-nhl-draft-top-30-preseason-rankings/
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/08/14/hockeyyinsiderr-meltdowns-and-the-demand-for-instant-news/
Whoever the person it, they were really ill advised to bite at all the people getting on his case, especially caving to "demands" from IncarceratedBob . I would have went with "kiss my grits and if you don't like it unfollow!" and stick with their 'promises' to reveal more clues to their identity intermittently.
IMO being bullied around like that almost single handedly tells us that person is nobody with any real connections.
Why not just stick with Dreger and other legit people?
All you people follow these idiots and then for some ridiculous reason think it's a smart idea to copy and paste their random bs on here just to start debate over what is clearly a lie.
This is how stupid rumors start
Part of NHLPA proposal allows teams to buy/sell draft picks and cap space from other #NHL clubs. How much would a 1st overall pick be worth?
Interesting, but to me this offer sound very fantasy hockeyish to me.(Haven't read it all, just bits and pieces that people have pointed out.
but if we trade Michalek all we do is create another hole .. Let one of our prospects fill the void that Ryan would have taken
To Ottawa: Bobby Ryan RW
Ryan is younger & has been healthier than Michalek & fits better with the rebuild. However, being an American & Ottawa being a small market team, I'm not sure if he would want to be traded to Ottawa or if he would stay.
It's becoming another Nash scenario for me, we hold out hope only to be dissappointed as another top player goes elsewhere.
I think a 1b like Michalek will be much easier to replace with our current prospects. We can only hope one of them will be a legit top 3 in this league like Bobby Ryan but it is safe to say at least one of Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Stone, or maybe even Petterson can play in our top 6 this season to make up for a loss of Michalek.
I really don't know if I expect anything to materialize out of this...I love Ryan and have been pushing for him since the Nash sweeps, even said we should have outright gone after him guns blazing and ignored Nash.
On Hockey Buzz and on a Travis Yost today's blog, two guys say they heard a Bobby Ryan to Sens could be announce by friday and ask if other people heard the same rumour....
Someone??
one question tcharger, how is RSU a joke? best and most dedicated fans we have
Politics/BS I witnessed over the last week or so in the FB group.
People being bullied for disagreeing with apparently the select few who are tight with Michael Bradley...and then the person being harrassed because they didn't like Crosby, being told to get a life repeatably, called a leaf fan getting booted because they were apparently aggressive, although from what I and others saw this wasn't the case.
So really...if a group that is run by a dictator that removes people for not sharing the same opinion as him(on a completely unrelated topic to our Sens) is our most dedicated group of fans that is pretty sad. Sorry though man...not something I want to be a part of or support.
Daniel Alfredsson says hi. (6th rounder, 1994)
But I do think Stone has a good chance.
Ducks just want too much for a one dimensional (offence minded) young player.
We must continue to rebuild, and forget adding a top sniper,
since we just might have one in our stable of prospects right now ! Silverberg, Stone, Zibanejad ...........
Patience almost always wins over hastiness !!
GO SENS GO !!!!!!!!!
Stone was projected as a late 1st round pick up until his nasty injury. Everybody skipped on him up until 6th round because of the seriousness of his knee injury.
IMO, a bit of patience and an excellent rehab program is what made him pop up as a unexpected high end prospect. The fact is, it wasn't unexpected. He's got great talent.
$240Mil in revenue sharing in year 1 alone...Bettman gonna reject that faster than u can say lockout!
I think you're missing the point. The new revenue sharing model is optional. The cap is still there, but for anything over the cap, there will be a tax that will be shared. If you're a big market team and you want to pay more than your competitor just to win, then you spend. If you want to make money and have limited sharing, then you don't spend.
Everyone has said from the beginning Michalek would be a better 2nd line winger on the Sens than a 1st liner. That stems back from the Nash talks. So why the concern moving him for a true 1st liner? We will have a much easier time replacing a 2nd line winger with a few of our up and coming guys. Hell, we had Greening on our top line most of last year. When you break it all down it's more about a compliment to the other players on your line sometimes, than anything else. Find someone who works hard and makes things happen.
This summer I have been doing a team by team look at the prospects around the NHL. Today I released the Senators report. I thought you guys might like it, so I thought I'd share.
http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/08/15/top-shelf-prospects-ottawa-senators/
Thanks for passing this along. Have shared the link on Twitter.
I would agree, except for two things:
1- some of these owners have more money than brains
2- if they really don't want to spend more (on revenue sharing) then they don't have to. They have the option of not exceeding the cap. The cost associated with revenue sharing is only in play IF they spend over the cap..
So would the struggling teams sooner have the $$ to sell their 1st round pick -- or would they sooner have the player...
Now is that going to fly?
Quality write up...would like to see your opinion on a wider variety of our prospects.
No I'm not, you are, the tax and the increase in Revenue sharing are 2 different things.
Revenue
Fehr said that up to $250 million could be entered into revenue sharing under the PA's proposal. The league's current system is quite benign, with various limits on which teams are eligible for revenue sharing. Only 10 teams were eligible a year ago while 18, according to Forbes, operated at a loss. Full details of the NHLPA's revenue sharing ideas were not initially available
Tax
While a hard salary cap would remain, the Canadian Press reports that the PA's proposal calls for a luxury tax that would allow big-spending teams to exceed the cap by a certain number. If the luxury tax were to work like in other leagues, the money spent over the set limit would be distributed amongst teams that do not spend over the limit.
The Owners DONT want to share even more money to teams like Columbus and Phoenix and for the Tax, why would Owners accept that when they can do it now and dont have to share the money the spent over the cap. The Tax is a gimmick for small market teams to get their hands on that penalty money (where as now it goes to some fund I think)
This is something that a WELCHER would say.
Upgrading MM9 to a true first liner like Ryan is a decent move - but remember a few things:
* It will likely cost us more than just MM9 - thus giving up some of the pieces we might need to get another top 6 (since we're not adding one here, just upgrading one).
* MM9 is presumably more of a 200-ft player, presumably likely to stick around longer than the three years Ryan has left and (not for nothing) actually had better numbers last year. That's a lot of presuming of course, but should all factor in and Murray knows better than we do.
* MM9 is cheaper than Ryan so if Murray decides that Ryan is a net upgrade in other respects, he'd still need Melnyk to okay the extra salary.
So if we did trade MM9+ for Ryan we'd still need to add a top 6 forward, but that doesn't mean the trade isn't still a good idea.
Personally, I think the "+" will be too much for the upgrade we'd get. Especially when whatever makes up that "+" would likely be pieces that we'd need to get another top 6 later on (like Zibanejad, Wiercioch, etc).
I'm touched by the tribute, but can we all agree that the "welcher" joke is long dead?
Hey Miguel is back under a new alias...
This is what NHLPA BOSS Donald Fehr has said, so if you wanna call him a "welcher" by all means go for it. We are in for a long lockout if he is indeed a "welcher".
I'm sure some of the stuff they threw in there are things they expect to "reluctantly" remove to get a deal done. Typical negotiation.
Sadly neither guy (Fehr or Bettman) are Chumlee here.
pointing out a WELCHER is not a joke - it's a public service
When I'm doing all 30 teams, its hard to do a full write up on more than 4 or 5 guys per team. Especially since I try to avoid the two liners, and give a full report.
Articles from just before the draft on Cody Ceci and Jarrod Maidens are linked in the article, if you want a little more.
If you want a quick report on anyone else, feel free to ask, obviously I can't be as detailed as I was on those guys, but I can give you some answers.
Great opportunity!
Hope folks lurking in the comment section today take full advantage. Thanks BKerr!
A lot of people seem to think that Stefan Noesen is actually the guy in the Sens system that has the potential to be the biggest star. Where do you see him in 3-5 years?
A very interesting read.. thanks for that.
His best work might end up being the 2011 draft where I had the Sens as tops in the entire NHL. I really loved that draft, and think its huge for the forward group especially.
I already profiled Z-bad, so you have that.
Puempel - one of my favorite value prospects going into that draft, I thought he was an outstanding middle first round pick. He had some issues this year with injuries, and that slowed him down and he didn't really get the chance to show the type of player he can be, but the guy has skill. His shot and release are already NHL ready. His skating is smooth and he picks up speed quickly and easily. He also has the vision to be a playmaker off the wing. If he can solve his hip issues, he can be a pure offensive player. Could use some work on the defence.
Noesen - Where Puempel is more a sniper from the outside, Noesen plays more of a power forwards game. He is extremely gritty in the corners and gets to the front of the net. He has soft hands and can score in close when he gets there. He also has a side that makes him a bit of an agitator, as he's chippy and always involved in scrums. Good skater with the speed, power and balance to drive the net. I don't know about being an NHL star, but he'll be a very good player; probably an important 2nd liner, or the 3rd best guy on a first line, depending on the makeup of the team and combos in the future.
Thanks for that!
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/08/15/grange_nhl_nhlpa_cba_talks_fehr_proposal/
Just think -- IF all work out you have power forward potential in Stone, Noeson & Maidens... one for each of the first 3 lines... or two on one line with a really good centre...
Now we know not all prospects work out... but the Sens could look very promising in about 5 yrs..
Well most teams can say that - but not all so it's good to be one of the teams that at least has the potential to be very good without major changes.
luxury tax is $$$ plus picks
15mil max over cap is allowed, penalties are:
5mil over- 3rd round draft pick and 5 mil to last place team in your division
10 mil over- 2nd round draft pick and 10 mil to the last place team in your division
15 mil over- 1st round pick and 10 mil to the last place team in your division.
this will put thought into going over the cap foolishly or just because they can afford it...
also...
teams who take in big contracts over 3+ mil at the deadline will take on 1/2 the entire cap hit of the season, this does not make the team pay half the salary only the remaining amount. this should bring parity in the league
should solve some issues of team stacking... a.k.a nyr, philly, la, etc..
It's bad enough some teams kinda sorta tank already and that some owners are real f**king cheap, compensating those that finish low directly with luxury revenue from your own division without dispersing it PLUS throwing them an extra pick? Yikes!
The sort of player that even though they might not end up as an elite player, just one that is basically adored by virtually everyone.
Fisheresque.
Do we really have problems parity wise? No repeat NHL champions since the lockout. I don't know that is an issue.
Also I don't think paying the last place team in your division solves anything. Do the Habs or Leafs really need increased revenue sharing out of a luxury tax if they finish last? Also you could be encouraging the exact thing you want to avoid by paying the last place team. You could encourage a team to spend little, finish in last and make a profit through revenue sharing.
Revenue sharing always has to go to teams in need (with provisos that they don't just pocket the money) not based on the standings.
Revenue sharing should have zero to do with where a team finishes in the standings. It's all about total revenue, and all revenue sharing should be shared across multiple teams in need not just 1 team, imo.
Could you possibly give a comparison to a current NHLer for both of these two? Thanks
it would be socialist not communist.
we don't have any parity issues at the moment,
but give it some time if rich teams can spend $80mil while others spend 50, it will be the old nhl where our team budget was 38 mil playing against $70-100 mil teams, sure we did good then but it wasn't really fair.
If the Yankees ever wanted to have an NHL team they might be less likely to have a $800M payroll if it meant they didn't get to draft at all - then again, they could just buy prospects anyway like the Yankees end up doing.
But yeah, the money should be dispersed based on some combination of market size, profits/losses etc as opposed to standings.
For example, if you have two teams with basically the same "means" - both small markets, both with limited budgets etc. If one has a payroll right at the floor and the other actually spends above the floor in an effort to ice a competitive team, I'd almost want the higher spending team to get a bigger share of the revenue sharing since they're at least trying to compete and takind some financial risks etc.
If you look at it in a capitalistic way, the teams that are spending more will (in theory again) eventually make more but it might not be immediate. So this method of rewarding teams for taking a risk and thinking long-term allows a little more protection for them and doesn't just blindly reward cheap (relatively speaking) owners.
This is the problem with the NHL though. If they don't get their act together to share revenues, the rich teams are going to bankrupt the small-market teams. It's not a gimmick, but a safeguard to protect them. As the revenue disparity grows between teams, plus the cap floor, small-market teams are being forced to pay players they cannot afford. They might even consider overpaying players just to reach said floor. Poor teams also become a dumping ground for bad contracts. Best case of this is Chicago dumping Brian Campbell onto the Panthers.
This is it really.
But they need to find a balance between keeping the league solid as a whole but also encouraging only really viable markets/owners to be members. It doesn't really help the league to continually prop up a failing ownership/franc hise. Doing so on the short term is fine assuming at some point that franchise is able to be on the other end themselves (helping other teams).
The problem is that the NHLPA will never support contraction since that's lost jobs. They love the floor and love when teams overpay someone to reach the floor since that ends up getting other players more money in arbitration etc - so the floor will never go away either. Unless the NHLPA gets something they like even better in return for giving up the floor or allowing contraction etc.
"Further clarification to NHLPA proposal to limit non player spending by teams. Player concessions in 2005 lowered player costs while non player costs sky rocketed. These costs can be defined as GM/Coaches salaries on down to Jet Fuel. Speaks to proposal theme of shared financial responsibility in the PARTNERSHIP. The extra draft pick for teams in financial trouble is very discretionary and would be mutually agreed upon by NHL/NHLPA on case by case basis with the intent to target the market/team in need. This would be very limited but the pick itself would serve the purpose of helping to revitalize a team. Lastly,a franchise in distress under special circumstances,w ould be permitted to trade/sell up to $4 million in cap space to another team giving the team a way of getting another 'paycheck'. This would be VERY limited and only available to teams in need."
Very interesting concept...
I think this is why the NHLPA's offer is very creative. I've only read the media reports, so I don't know all of the details, but it seems the players are simply asking for a cost of living adjustment. Each year they get a certain amount of growth. Any growth over and above would go to the owner's. This would encourage the owner's to maximize the revenue growth and not worry about not getting their share.
It wouldnt be very limited if half the League needed it. This would not fly, laughing at the extra pick, unless its a top 5 pick how the hell is it supposed to revitalize a struggling franchise.
I like Aaron for his game commentary but not when he tries to intervene on serious stuff like this. Its just not his forte...
What do you think of our goalies after Bishop/Lehner
In your opinion are any likely to have nhl level upside? Be it starter or backup?
I don't like this part of the proposal at all. It might have been used as fluff to extend the proverbial olive branch. I doubt this gets implemented.
Yeah and what did the Panthers do, they rolled with it, took even more risks and look how they turned it around in a couple of years. Its teams like Columbus, Phoenix, Islanders, Edmonton...that just sit back eat up the revenue sharing without taking risks.
And God forbid a team like Phoenix and Columbus had to relocate due to financial problems, hell I think the Owners would applaud a move to Quebec or Ontario, would certainly save them a fair bit of revenue sharing.
... what's your point? Preseason rankings? Who cares ?! 2 years ago huberdeau wasn't even in the preseason rankings OR the 1st quarter rankings and he went 2nd or 3rd overall.
Not to mention none of us know who any of these no name 17/18 year olds are to begin with!
All you did was show us a list of 30 players. Doesn't include stats, size, player comparisons or anything.
Wow. We better hold onto that 1st round pick so we can draft Bo Hovart!!!! Who?!
And you can bite everyone here. Zibby+1st could land us a player that would.make us immediate contenders. What will Bo Hovart do for us?
EXACTLY. As if the Leafs needs to make even MORE money fielding a shitty team!
That's a really long Tweet!
You obviously don't want the welfare teams in the league, but it is a bit of a reality as hockey markets vary greatly in size. The league already has season-ticket and tv market size restrictions on the revenue sharing formula. Revenue sharing isn't the only solution to the owner's crying at the end of each CBA. The cap floor needs to be looked at as well. It needs to be set at a level where it won't bankrupt 1 in 6/7 teams.
It was broken up between many Tweets.. I just copied and pasted it into the comment...
Well I think there's a difference in spending some time and money to get a franchise off the ground in a small market (i.e. Florida) and continually pumping money into a market where they're clearly not making any progress (Columbus).
So "welfare" teams I would not want in the league, but I'm fine with the have teams helping a team that's struggling get into the black. But it just has to be a situation where a few years of extra revenue sharing will actually make a difference.
In spirit, welfare programs are supposed to help poor families get on their feet and at the very least give their children a chance to not be on welfare when they grow up. But sometimes families are on welfare for generations either due to them not trying hard enough to get off it, the system failing or other factors.
So not looking to get into a political debate of course, but I think if revenue sharing or taxing or some such structure is going to work it has to have checks and balances to ensure that it can't be abused and at the same time actually does allow teams that are struggling financially to turn things around.
There is a wide gap with so little time left - according the Bettman. Well, Mr. Bettman, you should have started these re-negotiations a lot sooner than you did.
He also said the players did not give a complete proposal.
Long lockout coming guys.... I don't think there is any way around it...
Could all be posturing. Really frustrating that these things are more about appearances than reality sometimes. And of course as fans we have zero say.
The fan that says "It's too expensive, I won't go to games." really isn't changing anything. Like any other free enterprise, it's all about supply and demand. If teams can turn a profit with higher ticket prices they will do it and nobody can really complain.
But it does look bleak at this point. The teams that can least afford a lockout have the quietest voices among the governors - nobody is going to care if Ottawa and Columbus etc are in pain about it as long as New York and Toronto see long-term gains in their future.
Our one ace in the hole (maybe) is Phoenix. Bettman wants so badly for that to work that he might be more inclined to try and minimize any lockout.
Owners are easily going to be the bad guys this time around, and they're doing a good job of ensuring that.
Still though, from what we've seen so far, it is very apparent that neither side at least to this point seems to give a single shit about whether the season is lost or not next year. The owners throw an absolute shit-anvil at the NHLPA and players respond by being all smiley and countering with a rose painted picture that they damn well know isn't going to get anything done.
Let's hope between these two salvos though, there is at least a common framework to negotiate off of.
Can't blame the players either for wanting to prop up broke teams (ie. keep jobs) while at the same time opening some cracks for the rich to spend more on player salary + keep sunbelt teams afloat.
Hahahahaha.
Hall/Eberle/Yakupov/MacKinnon FTW!
*projectile vomits*
Don't forget RNH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNz6UHK-sE&feature=youtu.be
Oh yeah him too! That is who I meant instead of Eberle. :)
The Owners got everything they wanted in the last CBA.. and they ruined it again. They need to look at the few Owners who have caused this whole mess and find a way to control them.. rather than looking to the players to fix it all the time.
The Owners do not have fan support.. and I'm pretty sure they would be shocked with how much the fans blame them for everything.
Well I'm kinda used to having Hockey Lockouts, 3 now..., good thing is NFL is right around the corner and atleast they know how to fix shit and get a season going, gotta love the non guaranteed contracts! hehe.
U suck, ur cut! (obviously with stipulations)
Maybe he's got a really long tweeter...
~$6,800,000,000
The players countered:
~$8,500,000,000
That's a lot of zeroes!
PER YEAR that works out to between $1,700,000,000 and $2,125,000,000.
Not sure what accounts "NHL player salary" so far as players in the minors, but let's assume on the high end that each team has their 23 man roster + 10 NHL ready players on the farm team. 33 players x 30 teams is close enough to 1,000 so let's call it that.
This means that including farm team players they are fighting over AVERAGE salaries between 1.7M and 2.1M.
If I'm mistaken and it is only players on a team's active 23 man roster then it is average salary actually between 2.5 MILLION and 3.1 MILLION a year AVERAGE! Yeah that includes entry level deals and 4th line knuckle-dusters!
This equates to an AVERAGE team salary of between 57.5M and 71.3M and you know who is paying for it? Us!
Yeah some franchises make money hand over fist and some of them probably even screwed over players in the past and lied about financial and all sorts of shit... but at the end of the day these owners are responsible for convincing us to go to these games, to pay the players that kind of money, to build or lease buildings, orchestrate and pay all the staff required to manage a team and operate an arena... and they assume all the risk!
In 2005/2006 the salary CAP was 39 million and now the players are fighting for an AVERAGE of 71.3M plus no reductions to contract lengths etc...
Let me guess! Patriots fan! Haha.
*takes a wild swing at RUSH*
Them are fighting words!
J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS!
if tookie is a pats fan, i will stop supporting that team
haha just kidding around
Lets go 49ers!
So tookie..is the game plan for the jets wildcat all season?
I don't see how you keep Sanchez/Tebow both happy
hockey or sex for winter sports. everything else can suck it.
Nicely done, I am a massive Jets fan as well! Was there for the Jets / Pats tilt last year!
Should be even more of a circus than usual this season hey?
J-E-T-S!
Haha.
Cheers
Good luck ever winning a superbowl with Mark Sanchez under center haha
Password: Football12
If anyone is interested..Alf ieforMayor, but now they have TEBOW too
haha
I"m definitely interested in the pool. How many teams are there and what's the roster breakdown? There's nothing, NOTHING better than fantasy football.
Funny how we're talking about the CBA negotiations and now football, I became a football fan during the 2004/2005 NHL lockout.
atleast the lingerie bowl girls are hot, sexy and can get away with wearing skin tight clothing...
no wonder why there was a dont ask dont tell policy in america.
I hope to have 12-14 teams...but its currently set for 20 max..
Prettysure the roster is set as
Qb
3rb
3wr
Te
1 Rb/wr/te
Def
If we get more than 12 I'll likely drop it to 2wr/Rob and make 2 flexes
Sounds sick I'm in. I'll check out your scoring breakdown but I don't really care. I love fantasy football haha Do you have a date in mind for the draft?
Great article BKerr, very well written! I would love to hear your thoughts on another Swedish prospect in our system who could crack the NHL roster this year. Where do you think Andre Petersson would be on your list of prospects? Do you think he could make the team this year?
If they reach their full potential.
Puempel - Mike Cammalleri, but 6'0 instead of 5'9"
Noesen - Brendan Morrow, but with a pests attitude.
Remember these are what they can do if they reach their full potential, and I don't think many prospects actually reach their full potential.
Quoting Tcharger-RSU is a joke:
Late round goalies are long shots, and goalies develop late. Would many have predicted how good Halak would turn out when he was 20 years old? Or Pekka Rinne? Heck how long was Tim Thomas overlooked?
We'll have to wait and see how Dreidger and Brassard develop, but neither were on my radar for top 80 picks in the draft (of course even I don't see as many games as the Sens Scouting staff, and they've done a damn fine job in recent years as I've said above) and they took Dreidger at 76.
He's got the offence to maybe get a chance as an average second line guy. Good skater, good hands, passing, shooting skill, etc.... But the guy is gonna need to learn how to backcheck or no coach in the NHL is gonna take his 2nd line skill and put him in the lineup. You can get away with that when you have Alex Semin skills (and even then coaches like Dale Hunter aren't gonna like it), but when you are just an average second liner offensively, you better bring more to the table.
--------------------
One other post, someone said that if the season is cancelled the Oilers have a good shot at first overall... not true.
Now there is no guarantee that the NHL will use the same system as before, but here was how draft order was done in 2005
- 3 lottery balls for every team.
- take away 1 lottery ball for every year you made the playoffs in the last 3.
- take away 1 lottery ball for every year you ended up with the first overall pick (not via trade, your natural pick was 1st overall).
- Give one ball back to any team who lost all three balls (every team is in the lottery).
Then pull the lottery 1-30
Reverse order in round 2, 4, 6 (ie 30th in round 1, is 1st in round 2 etc...)
same order as round 1 in rounds 3, 5, 7
Based on this system (Canadian teams only). Leafs, Jets, and Flames have 3 balls each. Canucks, Sens, Oilers, Habs, have 1 ball each.
J-E-T-S SUCK SUCK SUCK !!! HAHAHA GO PACK GO !!
paying for the whole AHL Live package? Will be much
easier to get through this if I can still cheer for
our guys on the farm.
A good question. Any Bingo fans have an answer? Might actually be worth getting the AHL package if lockout happens.
... but that might be because I'm a Raiders fan
So in 8 seasons you could possibly lose 3 due to lockout?
Are these guys postering or do the actually believe they could be out for 2 yrs.. and come back to a stable league or an NHL at all?
I really feel this will be a long lockout and we will never again see Alfie playing on the ice in a Sens jersey..
How can the players say they want to play.. then Fehr comes out and says they could be out for 2 yrs..
At least you guys have Run DMC. Keep your fingers crossed for him to have a healthy season. The guy is way too sick to be injured half the season.
Sorry about the football talk folks... but there's really nothing interesting to talk about as far as hockey is concerned. I'm sick of talking about rumors and all the other b/s, and the potential of a lock out just depresses me.
Wheee....
Tookie, I wouldn't really be planning for any playoffs.. the way things are sounding...
There is usually a guy on ustream for most BSens games however I might consider getting an AHL pass online to show support to the best hockey going on in North America this year.. Then again their online package is a rip off especially considering the quality of the stream.. It works out to around $7 a game and it is no where near high def, infact it looks like television from the 70's and during the intermission you can hear the radio broadcasters that they have anouncing the game for the live stream dis people in the stands and talk about how gay their uncle is while they dont realise the web stream can still hear them. If the AHL is smart they will significantly reduce their online package during the lockout to attract NHL fans looking for hockey.
I agree he played great and looks like a real good prospect but isn't he drafted by Calgary ?
Nevermind. My bad. Didn't scroll down on mynhldraft.com.
and we all know how accurate their predictions are...
At least you guys have Run DMC. Keep your fingers crossed for him to have a healthy season. The guy is way too sick to be injured half the season.
quote]
unfortunately he has the same fitness advisor as a certain ex goalie we got from CBJ
plus the raiders are dealing with being badly run for the past 25 years
until the Davis way of doing things is completely kicked to the kerb they'll win nothing
This would be a vomit inducing way for Alfie to retire.
The current split of 57% players vs 43 % owners, seems to be the main battle front! ?
Salary Cap has gone from $39 million in 2005-2006, to a projected $71 milliomn next season ????
Owners are to blame for spewing out 14 year terms with $100
million contracts, and are the cause of the problem in escalating salaries in past 6-7 years.
My solution would not only have the Revenue Sharing go to 50-50, but have an immediate drop of at least 20 % in salaries for all the players.
Last time I was at the Montreal Forum in 1987, I saw a game of the Canadiens and Red Wings. I was given tickets by a Distributor customer, which were 4 Red Seats at face value of $98.00 for the 4 tickets!!
Today these must be appx $300.00 each = $1200.00
Let's get real !!!!!!!!!!!
someone that feels my pain...Raiders only good on Madden 11...Carson Palmer, really?
Good points and here is an alternate way to think about it.
The players % of revenue annually = what the cap ceiling is. So even if revenues continue to happily grow, bolstered mostly I am sure by than at most a dozen of the bigger markets, then that puts a massive squeeze on the other ~20 teams not only to compete/parity but even in some cases to make the salary cap floor!
So I don't care if Toronto and New York each make a billion in revenue next year, there is no way those markets should pound up the cap for Tampa bay or Calgary or Ottawa...
So really, this whole revenue sharing idea is broken. Maybe the owners knew this all along and will now apply the logic I just stated to drive the % down down DOWN until at least 3/4 of teams can at least make a profit without having to make the playoffs. I don't care if annual league revenue is 100 billion, they should just set the floor and cap at 40M / 60M respectively and lock that in the CBA for 8 years.
Predictably, the owners and the NHLPA are playing "chicken" against each other - waiting for the other side to blink.
In most games of chicken, however, there are only two combatants, but in this case the fans are stuck in the middle, and neither side cares...
the first NFL game I ever watched, when the NFL had just started being shown in the UK, was the superbowl in 1984 between the raiders and the redskins. I picked the raiders because their uniforms were cooler and i didn't like an interview i saw with Joe Thiesman. the Raiders won and I assumed I had picked a team that would dominate the league.
I was wrong.
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